General Manager of Citi TV/Citi FM and host of The Point of View on Citi TV, Bernard Koku Avle interviewed former Liberian President, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf who was in Ghana recently to empower women leaders at an event hosted by the University of Ghana.
The event she spoke at was on the theme: “Empowering Women leaders, driving sustainable solutions in Ghana” held on July 28, 2023.
Bernard Avle’s interview with the former Liberian President was aired on The Point of View on Citi TV on Wednesday, August 2.
Below is the full transcription of Bernard Avle’s interview with Johnson Sirleaf:
BKA: Ghana seems to be one of your favourite countries
Ellen: Ghana and Liberia have a long historical relationship and Ghana has supported us in our peaceful deliberations and provided refuge to thousands and thousands of our people who had to leave because of the war and also on a personal basis. All the leaders of Ghana, past and current presidents of Ghana, I’ve had the opportunity to interact and work with them on West Africa and continental African issues. So it is always a pleasure to be here.
BKA: The last time you were here it was for the Afrobarometer in May, what brings you back to Ghana this time?
Ellen: At this time, I’m on a little bit of a mission and assignment on the part of global women that’s had a programme in Kigali– Women Deliver. And we all agreed that we are committed to making sure that we will work with all the young and older women that work with us for the promotion of women’s leadership and participation in all spheres and because I have some of my leaders here in Accra, I needed to come here and sit with them and the good part is we come to the university and that gives us the opportunity to promote women in all leadership positions not only in Africa but also in the world.
BKA: Since the presidency in 2018, will this be your main preoccupation?
Ellen: Yes, definitely. I am just committed and knowing the long journey I had to top leadership, just drives me to make sure that I am able to help every woman that I can work with along their journey to top-level leadership because we think when we have more women in top leadership positions, we will see laws and policies that are going to ensure that there is full equity and equal opportunity for women.
BKA: When I look at your leadership journey, it’s remarkable. Did you get any mentors on your journey to top leadership?
Ellen: My mother first and foremost and many other women that were friends of my mother taught me to have humility, to make sure that I had the best education and if I look beyond my family setting, strong women that have taken positions in their societies would have mentored me directly by reading about them and learning about their journey.
BKA: It didn’t seem as if you had affirmative action supporting you. You grabbed the opportunity yourself. But when we look at the underrepresentation of women in leadership, what kind of support should women be given institutionally, to give them a boost in leadership?
Ellen: I want to come back to say I did get some mentorship examples in my country. We had Chief Suah Koko who was the first to open up the country for foreign investment. We had the head of our university for Liberia who was a great example in educational work in West Africa. We had a judge who took positions promoting the progressives, matching with them on the streets calling for democracy. Some of them, I did have an opportunity to interact and work with them.
BKA: So mentorship is as important as institutional support?
Ellen: Very much so. And that mentorship may come from within your own internal environment, that mentorship may come from a wide sphere of influence and mentorship may come from those who are far away from you whose example you use and so that is very critical to supporting what goes on in the leadership journey.
BKA: A lot of time when leadership is discussed in this country, we talk about influence and we don’t emphasise power when it comes to women. You occupied powerful positions and you excelled. Can you talk to us about the balance between being influential and being powerful
Ellen: You know, I face this issue so many times in discussions. But let’s be clear, l think we have different dimensions of leadership; concern for human life, and concern for equality. Women can use how they shape their own work and leadership in such a way that they can get following and that is the influence part of it and that is essential for women and if you look at the record, whether it is COVID-19 or other matters, you see how women leaders excel when it comes to managing issues-particularly in crisis.
Now, having said that, let me say that when women reach a level of authority and it is time to make hard decisions and if power is required, power has to be used and so our young women leaders, they must understand that. There are times when influence will enable you to do certain compromises because compromises bring you the real resolve that you want and that is to achieve the objective and in our case, it was an objective for peace and so there are times when you can set the powers and find the correct balance between influence and power.
BKA: What you said about leadership reflects something Kwegyir Aggrey said about education when he said if you educate a man you educate an individual, if you educate a woman, you educate a community. I sense this is something you’ve lived by because one of your achievements, when you became president, was expanding the frontiers of education. How important is it to educate women in Africa, particularly at this time?
Ellen: It is very important that all women have the opportunity to education and that is the basis for understanding and knowledge and you need that to path your own way to your goals and this is why when you find many of our children in Africa that are out of school for whatever reason, it is something we must put attention on and find where resources have been spent educating people, those countries tend to succeed much better in promoting their development goals.
BKA: So the free education part is the way to go?
Ellen: Yes, but the Finance Minister will have to say that, it needs to be free but you have to make sure that you balance it well in your budget and in making it free, one must ensure that you bring the quality to it and that those who are going to have the benefit of free education use it properly, use it not only to expand and increase their knowledge but use it for the good of society in their own interaction and relationship with others.
BKA: But there obviously must be means testing so that those who can afford can pay and those who can’t afford will get it free
Ellen: Absolutely. Sometimes that’s difficult. When you make a policy that is encompassing, you say free education, sometimes it’s hard to say who’s the one who is qualified to enjoy this free education. That means, one must understand the household derivatives, one must understand, how you draw the line. One must tie into academic excellence to make sure that those who benefit are qualified in terms of their own performance in school, and all of that. So it’s difficult but I do believe that every country has to have free education for the many who don’t have families that are able to support them. Education is a fundamental right for all individuals.
BKA: You are a media favourite because you were the first West African President to allow freedom of information for which you were given a medal by the African Media Editors. How important is it to have a free open society in a democracy, particularly within the West African sub-region?
Ellen: Whether you are trying to manage your business, whether you are trying to manage an institution, or whether you are a leader who has the responsibility to measure and you do not know the layout of the land, you cannot make the right decisions, you cannot formulate the right policies, you cannot benefit from other ideas.
One does not have a monopoly over knowledge and the ability to make the right decisions so listen to others in your interactions, and in your relationships, and go beyond that to listen to what is being said in the country, in the environment, in the world to understand the issues that need to be addressed because they have implications for your own country or situation and because we were able to do that, it is difficult to try to restrict that today.
BKA: As a former finance minister, Ghanaians won’t forgive me if I don’t ask this question. We are in the middle of an IMF programme, and we have a lot of debt. When you were president of Liberia, you managed to get Liberia debt-free. There are people who feel that these Bretton Woods institutions really don’t inure to our long-term benefit. What must be our approach to managing the economic crisis with IMF, World Bank kind of partners?
Ellen: Every country has to centralise itself based on its economic conditions but let’s say the global financial structure doesn’t favour African countries or countries that are poor so whether you are dealing with bilateral support through the partnerships that you have with other countries with diplomatic relations or whether you are dealing with multilateral support through the Bretton Woods institutions, they are still so organised in their decision making that you don’t get the scale of help that is required for transformation in our economies and so anytime there is a major crisis, you find yourself unable to overcome it and slip into debt and you have to start debt relief all over again.
In Liberia’s case, it was a dire situation. We had two decades of war and our debt had not been serviced. I needed the fiscal space to be able to start the process of reconstruction so I had no choice but to go for debt relief and I was so glad that I was able to persuade all of the creditors including the private sector creditors to provide the relief that we needed to get the fiscal space to increase the level of our domestic revenue and to take on that process and I think we were close to $4.6 billion in revenue and for a country at that time when I took over, its budget was only $800 million and our debt was multiples of our revenue. Nothing we could do then.
BKA: Beyond the stability you get and the fiscal space you get, what do you think is the most important thing for transformation?
Ellen: The ability to use the nation’s own natural resources in a very transparent manner and to put it to the use of the country. There is too much diversion of natural resources either because of bad concessional and contractural agreements or because of the leakage through dishonesty and corruption and I believe examples of some of our countries that use their natural resources for the good of their countries are able to address issues of education, infrastructure, institutions and those that do that are able to achieve their goals.
BKA: How should African countries view Chinese aid?
Ellen: I don’t believe any of our countries need to be tied to any one process or country of support. I think the country has to decide on its own abilities and capacities and how to engage and get support from partnership countries and ensure what is provided is in terms and beneficial to the country and produces results in line with the national agenda and transformation
BKA: View on coups in Africa
Ellen: I am worried about the coups and I think every African has to be because coups have never solved any problem in Africa. What the acclamation or justification is, the results based on empirical evidence is that coups lead to devastation, it leads to deaths, it leads to destruction and sets a country back and my country Liberia is an example. When you look at other countries, they will tell you when the country is destroyed, rebuilding is so difficult so I think as a leader in Africa, it is very difficult.
ECOWAS has been a very strong institution trying to respond to anyone that attempts to take power without going through the proper means and we hope all our leaders will commit to ensuring democracy.
BKA: What is the missing link for ECOWAS?
Ellen: In recent years, ECOWAS has not only shown that it can in unity, address problems relating to peace and security and start a process of working and collaborating to address our major infrastructure problems whether it is power or roads and we see that happening now.
BKA: Message to African Women?
Ellen: Get as much knowledge and information as you can, and go past your fears. Determine what your goal is and give it courage because there will always be obstacles but you can overcome it with determination.
BKA: When is your next book coming out?
Ellen: I will have to find time and go and sit down to put things together and it is underway. We have just begun putting things together so I just now need to discipline myself and sit down and put things together.
BKA: Where do you get the drive from?
Ellen: If you have the opportunity to read my first book, you will see the journey and what I went through to become a leader of our country and that is my motivation. Unless we get enough women climbing leadership, and challenging the obstacles to leadership, for me and other women, we are dedicated to making sure that we bring out a lot of women into leadership positions.
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