Lloyd: Leaders Should Let Perceptions Of Corruption Be Adequately Dealt With, Legally And Politically

Mr. Andrew Lloyd, CMG MBE, is Her Majesty’s British High Commissioner to Nigeria, non-Resident Ambassador to the Republic of Benin and Permanent Representative to the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS). In this interview with ALABI WILLIAMS, he appraises relations between Nigeria and the United Kingdom and commented on democracy, corruption and the security challenges of the moment.

Shortly after the 2011 general elections and the post-election violence, you were quite optimistic that things would calm down and give way to good governance. What is your assessment one year after?

I think that the stride of democracy continues and there is no doubt that it was a significant achievement for Nigeria to have so many people participate in the election of April last year. And so the challenge now, I know there are numerous challenges is to ensure the democracy that everybody believes in turns into delivery for peoples’ basic needs, for their security and for their wellbeing. And of course there are significant challenges.

Looking at the security, will you say some strides have been achieved?

I think there are some huge challenges and we saw an example of that just this weekend (too weeks ago), with those terrible attacks in Kaduna. And I think it is important to remember that this is not a popular setback. The attacks taking place have been carried out by a very small number of people; they are indiscriminate, they are criminal and they are harming people who just want to get on with their lives, irrespective of their religion, irrespective of their beliefs and irrespective of their roles in Nigeria. So, this sort of indiscriminate, criminal attacks are proving to be a huge challenge, not just for the government and security forces, but also for ordinary Nigerians, who would prefer to look forward to a better life within the dictates of economics, rather than in the acts of a few criminals dominate their lives.

Some would say there is something similar between what is happening now and that immediate post-election violence of 2011. There were threats in the build up to that election, which manifested in violence after the election; and has somewhat refused to abate. Don’t you think there is a political link?

I don’t see the link. What I see is a relatively small group of people who are committing terrorist acts and they are looking for any justification for that. I don’t these people have anybody’s interest at heart, other than own. So when they purport to be advancing the interests of this or that religion or this or that group, actually what they are doing is they are really damaging those groups they purport to they are really damaging those groups they purport to speak for. It is really important not to confuse criminality and terrorism with legitimate political, economic or development concerns because there are a lot of people around the world who face similar development challenges who do not commit terrorist acts.

Now there is no doubt that if you are to have an effect security response, that needs to be a whole of gamut, not simply left to the uniformed branches; and that addressing some of the issues in development and social tensions can help to crowd out some of the space in which criminals operate. One of the challenges is not to confuse terrorists with some of the grievances, which other people have, but to ensure that democracy genuinely does deliver to ordinary citizens, to ensure that the people are on your side, crowding the space for those criminals terrorists to operate. It’s a very fine point and sometimes it gets confused. Just to be clear, terrorism needs to be dealt with as a criminal act, that is what it is. But beyond immediate response to terrorists, one needs a development, economic and social agenda, which addresses the needs of ordinary citizens, not terrorists.

Some leaders think it is the failure of government that breeds terrorists and other criminals. Do you think that’s not correct?

I am not a Nigerian voter; one of the wonderful things about democracy is that it gives Nigerian voters the chance to express their opinions through ballot box. I think that is a political debate for Nigerians to comment on, not for a foreign government to talk about. But I think it is legitimate to say that there are some huge development economic challenges and in some way or other, they have to be addressed. In a sense, the challenges have built over a long time and they will take some time to resolve. I think the key is that the bond between the government and the public becomes as strong as possible and the way of ensuring that strength is to demonstrate delivery. We are there to help; the Department for International Development (DFID) is looking to support the government’s health and education objectives.

This week (two weeks ago), we have a British Destroyer (War Ship) in town, working with the Nigerian Navy. On trade, we are encouraging British businesses to come to Nigeria to trade with Nigeria. Indeed our trade is up by 10 percent this year and Nigeria’s trade to the UK is up by 300.  There are things that we can do to support addressing those challenges, but it’s not our job to intervene in the debates.

Still on terrorism, which is a global subject matter, will you say the Nigerian government’s effort at tackling it so far is good enough?

What I think is important is that the response to insecurity isn’t simply left to the military, the Police and the political class. I think it is important that there is a whole of government approach that is targeted at defeating this specific terror, but that the broader development, social and economic challenges are also addressed. I guess where I would expect to see continuing progress is in ensuring that there is a joint approach across the whole of government in response, not just to this specific act of terrorism, but to the broader climate of economic and other challenges, which often give rise to unrest.

The trouble with terrorism is that it tends to dominate the media, and that is their intention, but what we shouldn’t do is to allow them to overshadow some of the other insecurities, which are about basic economics. What I would say is yes, there is a role for a specific approach to counter terrorist acts, but that has to be part of a broader strategy, which includes social economic and developmental strategies.

You met General Buhari before the elections in 2011; have you listened to him of late?

I meet with the full range of Nigerian politicians; opinion leaders ordinary voters and I listen to all of them. That is part of my job. So I wouldn’t want to single out any particular individual; the fact is that it is my job to get as broad view of Nigeria as I can to see where Nigeria is and how the United Kingdom can support further development and what we can do to help to reduce the level of poverty.

The real question is whether you see Nigeria stabilizing politically, because without political stability, there can’t be development and you won’t even be here?

I think it’s been a pretty intense year and I think there have been huge challenges over the last 12 months. It was just over one year ago that the national Police Headquarters was bombed, in August the UN building was bombed and there attacks in Kano, Kano Yobe and several attacks. I think there have been series of really quite significant challenges in the last 12 months. Obviously, what one wants is a return to those better days. When I was here in the 1980s Nigeria had some world-class universities and one wants to get back to that situation, but not in the context of a military government.

So I fear that some of the intensity, which we see is the inevitable result of democracy, that as the space of public participation, public comments increases, so does in a sense, the intensity of public debate. I feel concerned, for instance, at the number of people that have talked about nation in the contest of a village or a community, rather than in the context of a Nigerian nation. I think the important thing for this era is for Nigerians to remind themselves that they are Nigerians first and not to allow the public debate to descend into community division.

Some people say the federation is weak and they want some form of decentralization. Do you think that is too much to ask?

What I have been impressed about is the respect, which is accorded to the constitution; and the constitution provides for a federated government; it provides for some respect for geographical origin and provides for Islam as well as Christianity. So those provisions within it are the most important reason why it has remained strong. What I am referring to, in as sense, is that people are beginning to define themselves not as citizens of Nigeria but as citizens of much smaller units, and I think that’s not helpful of a modern day Nigeria. It is important for all Nigerians to remember that they are Nigerians first and not to seek to define themselves by their differences with their fellow citizens, rather than by what they have in common with their fellow citizens.

That is interesting, except that it is much more complex that, especially when you hear people blame Lord Lugard for bringing the Southern and Northern Nigeria together without consensus; and that is why the constitution is being contested, because it still does not address some basic issues, good as it is from your viewpoint. Do you think it makes sense for Nigeria to rewrite a constitution?

But I don’t agree with the premise of your question, because I think it is important to remember that this country returned to democracy in 1999 and agreed on a constitution. So I don’t agree with the basis of your question; because if you live in a representative democracy and most of the modern world lives in a representative democracy; that, in a sense represents some progress is been made in Africa. Then you have to accept that your representative democracy represents the will of the people; and so my view is that Nigeria was right to return to democracy and does not want to go to the dark days of military rule. It is right to pay such significance to the constitution, which is entrenched in the rule of law. Winston Churchill said that democracy may not be perfect, but it is the least, worst form of government. It is important for Nigerians not to talk themselves out of the core paths of their identity, which is democracy and a constitution.

Talking about trade, your Prime Minister came last year and there were promises of improved trade relations. Is it better now?

The bad news from the British perspective is that we are now on a massive trade deficit with Nigeria, but I think is good news for both our countries. This week we have (HMS Dauntless), the British Destroyer docked here in Lagos, which is part of our broader relationship with Nigeria. We’ve launched a great campaign, which is about connecting out heritage with our modern feature. Many of you would have seen the diamond jubilee in the UK; we’ve got the Olympics and Para-Olympics and we will have thousands and thousands of Nigerians as part of the Nigerian Olympic delegation. So we are looking forward to that and the strengthening of the British-Nigerian relationship.

As you said, the Prime Minister came and we pledged to improve our business relations and indeed it has improved. Our trade with Nigeria this year is up by 10 percent and Nigerian export to the UK are up by 300 percent. So, Nigeria is doing very well and we both benefit from the spectacular growth in our businesses; and we hope that the ordinary Nigerians will feel that growing prosperity.

Your Prime Minister also discussed about an exchange of prisoners between your country and Nigeria. What is the stage of that exchange?

We are waiting for the Nigerian Senate to finish deliberation on the prisoners transfer agreement; that agreement will give both our government the right to return our prisoners or to say no, we don’t want that prisoner returned. Each government has the right of veto, to either reject or to request the transfer of certain prisoners from either side. We really do want to see that legislation passed.

The unfortunate thing about for visa applicants who become criminals is that they ruin it for everybody else. So, we think there are a few hundreds of Nigerian criminals, who have been convicted through due process and the rule of law that we think should return to Nigeria. Under the legislation if passed, the Nigerian government can say yes or no, but if the legislation isn’t passed, the Nigerian government has no say, but it is entirely up to the convicted criminal. We think that is damaging for legitimate visa applicants, and we think it is damaging for Nigeria’s image abroad and it costs Britain tax payers a lot of money to fund Nigerian criminals in British prisons.

How many are they?

It’s hundreds not thousands. Many of those in prisons would not be eligible for return under this agreement, because they have less than twelve months to serve. It would affect a few hundreds, rather than the thousands reported. We issue, maybe more than 150,000 visas a year; we do that in good faith in order to welcome Nigerians to the United Kingdom. But obviously, if we have convicts, we need Nigeria’s cooperation so that those convicts don’t end up ruining it for those 150,000 others. We see this in both our interest and we hope to see early progress on the legislation.

Are you referring to convicts who don’t have genuine papers?

Some of them are not illegal immigrants; these are people who have committed murders, robberies or fraud. Some of these people have legitimate visas, but they have committed criminal acts for which they have been prosecuted and convicted and they are abusing the hospitality of the United Kingdom. They are abusing the good reputation, which Nigerians have across the world, including the UK. Our interest is in stopping them being a burden to the United Kingdom taxpayer and ensuring that they return to their country of origin. It is not just Nigeria; we believe these people have been convicted of crimes and they no longer have residential rights in the UK and should return, but the legislation gives the Nigerian government a veto, over that; it is not an automatic return.

Will you say our government is serious about fighting corruption, looking at the James Ibori case; it was pretty difficult to have him convicted here, so, do you see this government as really fighting corruption?

I acknowledge that a successful prosecution is better than a failed prosecution. For a successful prosecution you need to gather credible evidence, which can be presented in court to convince the jury and the judge that a genuine corrupt act has taken place. So we welcome the effort that the EFCC is making. I think the real risk though is that, one has to deal with both the act and the perception of corruption and one has to retain in a sense, political credibility as well as legal credibility. That’s where I think, it’s not just about the government, there are reports of corruption in lots of different places; I think that any leader will need to demonstrate, not just that one is perceiving corruption according to the rule of law but that one is role-modeling a stance which does not tolerate corruption.

I can see that a number of activities are underway and I would hope that we would be able to see early progress on them, whether politically or through the law courts. We want to be in a situation where, the James Ibori prosecution succeeds in Nigeria. We also want to be in a situation where perceptions of corruption are adequately dealt with, politically as well.

Since it is only 12 months of this administration, I think it would be unfair to make a judgment right now, but obviously, as time passes one would hope to see increasing progress.

You do not need to make an outright judgment; let’s say on a scale of 100, will you give this government 20 on fighting corruption?

I studied financial economics and I did an MBA as well.

I had your resume last year

You had my resume last year? So I know how to use spreadsheet and a whole lot of numbers. But my job here is a diplomat. So I use words rather than scores and numbers.

The Olympics; what are the challenges for your government?

The biggest challenge is to ensure that we win lots of medals. Sitting here in Nigeria, I’ll also be hoping that Nigeria wins lots of medals. We’ve got some athletes in common, Nigerian in origin, but running as athletes in the UK. I hope that collectively, we both prepare for those athletes. That’s obviously a challenge.

We’ve got hundreds of thousands of people coming; we’ve got thousands of athletes coming and hoping to meet conditions that are absolutely perfect. They have invested a whole lot in this period and we want to make sure that they are not distracted by anything. We also have their families, their teams; and we’ve got 4billion people watching on television around the world.

So, perhaps our biggest concern is always the weather, which our athletes can cope with, but doesn’t suit everybody and we’ll be crossing our fingers to make sure the weather is good and if not we have systems in place to make sure we got it right for the athletes.